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Report is out. Finlands experiment was a success. 'nt.

Minimum basic income made people happy, but didn't intice them to find work as planned. instead, they enjoyed themselves. Oh, did I predict that? 🤣

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109 comments
flack
Give it time. People get bored of partying.
Xixixi 🍀❓
... no, I think most of them get used to it.
25
Hanover FisteAuthor
I'm glad you're here. Didn't I tell you half a year ago that this would happen? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 You told me that it was a living success, and I told you to wait and see. Here we are!
flack
Hanover Fiste, mate, I don’t think that was me. And was the point them starting businesses? Because I thought the original idea was it making a more functional economy with low employment.
flack
Xixixi 🍀❓, I got bored of it. How many 40 year olds do you know who party all the time?
Xixixi 🍀❓
flack, I think you know that it was in a way a joke. But I know people who get used to live on welfare, actually they are not partying but doing other stuff, just not working... they could...
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flack
Xixixi 🍀❓, I know what you mean, but ubi as I understood it wasn't expected to suddenly turn everyone into an entrepreneur. It was a more holistic approach designed so that companies would be able to pay lower wages and spread the cost throughout society to allow them to be more competitive. And also make a less static economy by increasing the amount of money that wasn't just sitting in wealthy people's savings accounts. one reason the Finnish trial isn't actually ubi is because it was only given to people who were unemployed. Far from universal, I think you can agree
Hanover FisteAuthor
flack, keep in mind the UBI experiment was a test to see if it would work on a larger scale.
flack
Hanover Fiste, yeah. But as I said it wasn’t representative of actual UBI. Still the data about how people use it is solid. I bet the local pubs and drug dealers were glad of it... I look forward to the results from the Canadian trial and the one from barcelona. But it’s true that it takes more than money to start a business. If it was rolled out I think we would be inundated with bad musicians and shitty Etsy jewellery makers...
Hanover FisteAuthor
flack, I know you understand how statistics and samples work. It was a valid sample.
Farmer Jeff
flack, Canada already killed its experiment. It was also a failure.
9
flack
Farmer Jeff, not because it failed, but because of a political change...
flack
Hanover Fiste, but not a representative study. And not true ubi. It was something like enhanced unemployment benefit.
Farmer Jeff
flack, perhaps that’s because the conservatives who took over saw it for the failure it was?
Hanover FisteAuthor
flack, just keep ignoring the facts. Plug your ears and scream!
Adhominen
Need to find them the right jobs than
Hanover FisteAuthor
There's a good job for you. Finding "them" jobs.
Adhominen
Seriously the reason for unemployment is lack of jobs with a perspective or jobs you can do for a little selfishness, there are tons of shit jobs that don't get monitary valued enough or the worker cant benefit from in other ways, mostly God deamn monotonous boring shit, you don't get slightly enough benefits from doing them, to value your time on earth for fucks sake. Example given cleaning in a office, the fuck clean your fucking office yourself once a week big man! Lots of shit jobs should get abandoned smh. Also people need easier access to education and graduation. And we need more jobs that can be done from home office.
10
Adhominen
Basic income is a must. Anything else with this shitty job market is a slave treaty
Adhominen
In a world where running your own successful business is the ideal you can't expect people from not being selfish
Xixixi 🍀❓
In Germany it‘s easy to get free access to education... but you are only successful if you want to get educated. You have to do your share... working. Don‘t tell me it‘s not true. I went through all this... successfully.
11
Adhominen
Xixixi 🍀❓, easyer than getting a place to live haha still uni is closed to me except the library
Adhominen
Xixixi 🍀❓, eduction is rather easy but graduation isnt
Xixixi 🍀❓
=乇丂=, even graduation is easy, if you work hard. I worked night shift and studied at the same time. It worked. Well I hadn‘t a so call student life...
10
Adhominen
Xixixi 🍀❓, you contradict yourself there..
Adhominen
Xixixi 🍀❓, and still there are to many boring jobs demanding hard work without a profitable outcome for the workforce. Still I'm not supposed to enter university.
Adhominen
Xixixi 🍀❓, I also feel quite uncomfortable entering the library while being scanned for abnormalities by the young adults. And in general I'm fucking out of stock with dignity most of the time.
Xixixi 🍀❓
=乇丂=, no I don‘t, all my costs for studies were covered. But as I wanted to live on my own I needed the money for housing.
Adhominen
Xixixi 🍀❓, the contradiction didn't magicaly disappear... Ja still there
Xixixi 🍀❓
=乇丂=, where do you see the contradiction?
Adhominen
Xixixi 🍀❓, you kind said hard work is easy
Hyde
=乇丂=, it sounds like you are making every excuse possible to stop from accepting personal responsibility for the choices in your life.
Xixixi 🍀❓
=乇丂=, yes, it is, I knew why I was working. And the work experience made me much more focused and I got skills which still help me today. Sometimes it was hard to study after a turbulent night (I was working in a psychiatric hospital) but it was worth it.
Hanover FisteAuthor
Do you know where jobs come from? Rich people build factories so people will have something to do. Right? Hospitals are built so doctors will have jobs, right? Let's put this in perspective. Jobs are created by consumer demand. If consumers only want the cheap junk that's made in China, guess where your jobs are going? Taking money from person A and giving it to person B will only benefit person B. There is no growth there. Person A had to shrink for person B to grow. This whole MBA thing is a sham. Eventually you will see shrinkage and everyone loses.
10
Xixixi 🍀❓
=乇丂=, and by the way... hard work for my studies was fun as I was I interested in what I was learning... it was a privilege which was denied to both of my parents.
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Joey
Free money with no requirement to find work does not make people want to work? Shocking discovery.
20
Adhominen
Obviously that's not the point of it but Media smh focus on this because it's cheep info
Hanover FisteAuthor
=乇丂=, he's right. The whole experiment was to see if people would add to their basic income by working. The experiment failed. Even though the basic income wasn't much, it was enough to live on, so they didn't bother working. I see your complaints above. You don't like the kind of work that's available. You want someone to change that for you. If work was fun, they wouldn't call it work. Jobs only exist because something needs to be done, and somebody is willing to pay someone to get it done. The job market isn't there to serve your desires. It's there to serve the desires of those who are paying. The sooner you learn that the better off you will be.
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Joey
=乇丂=, I think that's the entire point. This was billed as freeing people up from the need to satisfy the bureaucracy and it didn't.
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Hanover FisteAuthor
I love all the excuses here by the socialists 🤣
10
Xixixi 🍀❓
Excuses are mostly a way not to be confronted with facts and to take responsibility for our own lives.
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Restricted User
Pro Creator
I'm pretty sure not be a socialist ...but your conclusions about this are against all facts in Social /Neuroscience ..at least a lot of so called capitalists and economical leaders support this idea to solve the upcoming crisis in society ! The Yellow Vest movement in France is just the beginning ...
Hyde
Awakened, what are your facts in social/neuroscience? Most of what I know exists is theories not facts.
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Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, just say the overwhelming majority of this specific science has this "opinion" .
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, this "opinion" has just been tested. The results are right here. Let's talk about the FACT that it didn't work....
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, it's just a fact beside this : The results are just Not published yet !
Hyde
Awakened, I'm glad you can acknowledge that it is not a fact that it is just a theory. Do you have any evidence to support your "overwhelming majority"? If they are being paid by the government then they should be expected to return with pro-government answers. They are smart enough to know not to bite the hand that feeds
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, take part of the Science based discussion about this..or just believe me ..
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, science requires evidence. I'm waiting for it too please.
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, round about 2 years ago I discuss this " Basic Income " debate on Sola /Plag ..on CGTN , RT a.o. . The lefties in Germany are totaly against because you loss with B.I. all other financial support in our Social system which they dislike ! At least and it's the current discussion again : Cost this System with Universal Income more or less then current System . One side think it will be cost 20 bin more the other side think it's just no difference . Surprised there was a very competence User which had a lot of facts ( Mathematik) and tabells you obviosly like .. This theme has a lot of issues , but the ruling minority decide .
Hyde
Awakened, which part of that is science based??🤔 *political theory is not science*
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, I' m a scientist ..special in systemtheorie ..damn , forget that"s neither fact nor empirical science 😁
Hyde
Awakened, cool...l'm a behavioural scientist focusing on individuals with behavioral issues.
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, so you should know in the case of Universal Income the people would ofc work , because it's the nature of the current human to buy a bigger car then the neighbour has with more money . The fear the people have enough with a basic Income is a faery tale in a consume based capitalistic Economy !
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, so, you should know about social loafing? In social psychology, social loafing is the phenomenon of a person exerting less effort to achieve a goal when he or she works in a group than when working alone. How much do you actually know about human nature?
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Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, enough to survive since now ..😁
Hyde
Awakened, there is no science in your postulations, they are merely wild fantasies that you to want to be real. You present conclusions as though they are proven facts, when they are nothing more than political dreams and fantasies. I came into this sincerely hoping to learn something about behavioral or social science *you should learn the difference* but so far you have disappointed. 😞
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Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, just Google for further information !! At least you don't know what's happen in the economy and it's a complex theme. Your believing is just a political one without any knowledge ..You share your opinion with 95% of the population , but as I said above , the leading minority knows the upcoming problems very well and seek Solutions...It's their duty if they want survive ! I'm just an observer and share my opinion about this here ..politicans have the same problem with their advisers..without own basic knowlege they need to transform the economy and public wealth in a rapidly changing world ! I' m tired to follow this debate with people which not know what's happen if their monthly paysheck can't payed by the Banks ..remember 2008 , just 3 days and the System you believe in , were destroyed !
Joey
Awakened, Finland's economy is growing.
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Joey, as well as the education system !
Hyde
Awakened, so you've gone from it's a proven fact to now its a complex theme, and 95% of the population agrees with me. I'm confused. Break it down for me, so that I may understand it. How does the leading minority know the upcoming problems very well? Are you *or them* able to articulate these problems so that the rest of us may also understand?
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Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, you believe ,as every one , there is no other System for living then you know and growing up..like my favorite philosopher said :" I can't answer any questions ,but make You think for yourself " So it's not my Intention to insult you for your lower knowledge because I need round about 40 years to know the complex Situation we are ..and it's useless for me in personal Life too ! Most of the people just struggle with the common problems of live and have no clue what's happen to them and their childs in future....Your Joker , elected as your President, is just the product of your society and believing..." We" deserve him , because with his primitive knowledge he will destroy this bad System which need to be destroyed immediatly . I'm not religious but know our future ,based on a nearliy thousand years old Christian prophecy, we are living in...
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, wow you've taken this way off topic. Let's reign it in please. The social program was a failure. Every socialist attempt has failed. China is moving toward more of a capitalist system while Europe slips into socialism. Which one is growing at over 6% and which one is nearly zero? 🤔 The evidence is everywhere. The facts are in your face. You don't see it because you don't want to....
Hyde
Awakened, you're being about as clear as mud...
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Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, it's the first time a state try this with a small number of people because a lot of Social ( not socialist ) scientist /economist discuss this new modell of welfare we obviosly need ..in a global debate ! We loss in the coming years more then 30% of the workingplaces if you know . As a business owner ( system) you can't ask your book-keeper for a new business -model when it's broken... because your employe only know your System where he is working in ! In the current debate only book-keeper without any own idea try to save the system with the Tools they know and learned in schools and University. But keep on truckine , it's not our business to find solutions !
Hyde
Awakened, you're back to "we obviously need"..... I've asked repeatedly for the evidence to support your claim. Each time you have offered excuses or attempted to walk back your claim. If you can provide NO evidence you should not make bold claims. so you've gone from it's a proven fact to now its a complex theme, and 95% of the population agrees with me. I'm confused. Break it down for me, so that I may understand it. How does the leading minority know the upcoming problems very well? Are you *or them* able to articulate these problems so that the rest of us may also understand? If you can't break it down or provide a link to someone who can, you can't be expected to be taken seriously.
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, rhetoric is indeed not my profession.. as well as I dislike Textadventures like this ..😁 It's just an opinion , take it as a hoax !
Hyde
Awakened, no evidence??
Hanover FisteAuthor
Hyde, I'll take that as a no 🤣
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Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, Hanover Fist ,in the moment the politic discuss which kind of evidence they like..but the climate change obviosly ..The debate about not ! You ask just for empirical facts ..they are only a tiny part of the problems so specify which kind of empirical evidence you need for this simple new welfare system ..walls against poverty are for sure no solution but lead to civil war called Revolution ..without any "evidence" for this the state is preparing for this case . Again it's my opinion and conclusions about basic Income by hearing a lot of International experts in the media and it's irrational to ignore this debates at least for misleading ideological reasons !
Hyde
Awakened, Can you at least share these "international experts" names so that we can learn this information also? P. s. I would be very careful about using "expert" and "media" in the same sentence. As they are often only referred to a experts if they agree with that particular media's platform and agenda.
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, my net-acess is broken sometimes...so just in short , the economic theories of Milton Friedman are under pressure nowadays ..but I think he is underrated because he implement Social aspects too which are ignored in praxis . Btw. the " holy book" of the lefties " Das Kapital" is ofc an accurate analysing of the economy but miss the capitalistic nature of the humans and the current situation where money is a product too ..just saying .
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, my evidence is right here. Where is yours? All we have is an excuse for not providing any. Surely you can remember a name....
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, Friedman economical theory is a good Starter .. There are a lot of guests from famoust University like Harvard , Kings College , a.o. in ambitiones features in the International Channels ..including RT and CNN 😁 Watching the Hawks or Cross Talk on RT is always good as Amanpour on CNN . Just notice Breitbart offer for some reasons a new Channel on Sola btw. ..🤣
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, you only named one economist. Then 2 colleges, and a bunch of biased "news" outlets. Wtf kind of evidence is that? You still have not addressed the facts of this official report. It's the biggest experiment of UBI ever. It failed. You seriously think an opinion from a reporter on CNN or the Russian times is more accurate than a real live test?
Hyde
Awakened, wait....can you specify what socialist theories Milton Friedman espoused?
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, it's just a hint for expand your overwhelming knowlege about the topic and economic theory . I don't meant ordinary reports or polit - Talks like you know from CNN and Fox a.o. ! CGTN offers for example a lot of Interviews with leading experts from all around the world ..Harvard , Yale or Kings College are ofc just a few University because you should know their reputation in economical theory . The web is not useful for this kind of information ..You need , as a common citicen , redacted , moderated Talks on Tv ! The Media in U.S. is mostly entertainment .. One of the reasons why most of your population is mostly uneducatet in this kind of world problems .
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, socialist theory ⁉️ For this kind question you should use the web . Also Google research is helpful to know about the famoust Conference in Bretton wood which at least install the economic World you live in. Just Google Bilberberg group for further research ..😊
Hyde
Awakened, I am aware of Milton Friedman. Until this conversation, I would have said I was well aware. I've heard a lot of what he says, and studied him, however I've never heard anything socialist out of him. Let me show you....
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, gotcha 😁 I said in my comment social not socialist ..but as I should know in U.S. It's just the same , sorry . I'm not an studied expert like you claims for yourself but hear a debate about his theories in a Tableround with so called economical experts like him years ago . At least you know very well I can't give evidence like facts...It's like I would say Friedmans or others theory is a fact . In 2008 I heard some people , maybe politicans, saying .."All this economical theories with nobelprice a.o. failed with this crisis we are " ..nothing change since then ! Btw. Your link about Friedmann ( 1 hour Youtube) don't work anymore ...What's happen ?
Hyde
Awakened, i understand. I also understand English can be troublesome at times. Milton Friedman has a lot of videos on YouTube. Watch them in your spare time. I'm no expert, just someone that has taken an interest, like you.
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Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, "an economist is someone who can tell you tomorrow, why the prediction they made yesterday, didn't happen today." It's not an exact science. We know certain things work, and certain things don't, but we cannot say how big it can get, how successful a thing will be or how much of a failure. We can only measure "tendencies". But one thing for sure is the freer the market the larger the growth. We regulate to keep markets open (fighting monopolies for example) and to protect the environment. There are regulations that attempt to create "fairness" that usually cause more harm than good, but not always. Those kinds of regulations and programs need to be carefully planned....
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Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, you are right , that"s why the politic experimental debate it and it's unpopular too in the society like taxes . But a lot of famoust corporate leaders support it too ..There is no other peaceful way in a consume based economy @
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, I wrote a long Text to comment but at least it disapear because the net was broken..so just one hint : read " THE UNITY OF KNOWLEGE " by E.O. WILSON
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hyde, notice my editing ( typo )
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, there is nobody that supports is except lazy people who want free money. Look at the evidence, and the interviews. Nobody supports is.
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, no famous corporate leaders support it. The only support it has is lazy people who want free money. Corporations need people who want to work.
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, you have no idea what money is , because you haven't 😁 Stop now ..I give enough hint's if you seriosly interested and there are lot of issues to discuss ..All current world problems are connected , you need to find the bottomline for all of this !
Hyde
Awakened, dude this last comment does not help your case. "I've given hints" accusing others of not knowing what money is. You try to portray as though you have this secret knowledge, like you and only you have uncovered the true global conspiracy.....yet when I and others probed you about these "facts" earlier in the thread, offering multiple opportunities for you to explain yourself you showed a complete inability, and a complete lack of desire to articulate your "discovery" the only thing you offered was a name and he doesn't he say what you're attempting to spin it into..... At this point it really just comes across as simple lunacy.... like some back door conspiracy theory
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Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, yeah, what Hyde said....
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Farmer Jeff
Hanover Fiste, and he calls himself Awakened. Ironic.
10
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, Yeah what the Farmer said , Arbeit macht Frei , Wer nicht arbeitet soll auch nicht essen , Jedem das Seine and Yes that"s lunatic thinking ...
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, yes, it's ironic....
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, Nomen est Omen ..
Hanover FisteAuthor
Awakened, cognitive dissonance
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, you should seek medical help for perception 😁
Farmer Jeff
Awakened, you should go back to sleep. The world would be better off.
5
Restricted User
Pro Creator
Farmer Jeff, ✔♾
tóót
Pro Creator
I want to correct you: UBI had no impact on employment. It doesn't mean that people with UBI didn't intend to work, it means that there was no difference in employment between people who received UBI and those who don't. It is an extemely strong result because it can't be used by either socialist or capitalist people for their agenda. Will make people think for sure..
5
Joey
From what I recall, UBI was supposed to encourage work more than the regular welfare system. Here, it failed on that respect.
10
tóót
Pro Creator
Joey, there are many possible objectives. Personal wellbeing is a common one at which the results are very positive. My personal take on this, UBI will come because it streamlines social wellfare. Match UBI with the current costs of social wellfare and you have happier people at the same expense, at least according to this experiment. Seeing that Finland put the UBI at 540€ seems to back up that they had something like this in their mind. As of now, UBI won't be able to fulfill any socialists utopias, for sure.
6
Joey
tóót, I'm not talking about socialism or happiness. My understanding was that UBI in Finland was, in part, hypothesized to increase employment among people in the UBI program. That didn't happen. UBI could be the wave of the future of welfare, but based on the findings in this one experiment it does not appear to increase the likelihood of anyone joining the labor force.
Hanover FisteAuthor
tóót, Joey, I agree with Joey here. The intention was not found to be successful, but I too see this as a future replacement. You see, I see automation and AI coming to replace humans. In the early industrial revolution people always feared that machines would replace humans, but in fact they created even more jobs. Well, the time will come when they do in fact replace people. When that time comes, I will be a full out communist. But here's the catch. I won't live long enough to see it happen. There's a lot of work left, and only capitalism will make it happen quickly and efficiently. I will use self driving cars as an example: they're proving themselves very capable. They have fewer accidents. But when a billion of them are out there we will find new problems. Huge gigantic systems need to be created, then we will need to create a system that can create better systems. A system making system. This is just a tiny faction of all that needs to be done: medicine, robot making, inventing, etc. I always say, don't pick unripe fruit. You could kill the mother plant. Let capitalism do its job. It's ok to play around with little experiments like this so 100 years from now they will have things to learn from. They will have a completely different world than the one we know....
Adhominen
Hanover Fiste, to be precise the employment increased slightly in fakt
tóót
Pro Creator
Augustus von Fach, this is statistically not significant.
tóót
Pro Creator
Hanover Fiste, Joey, another core objective of this pilot was to see if UBI will engage people in gig economy. Probably need to wait for final results to see if this happened.
Joey
tóót, we'll have to see. Though, from the graphs it looks like self employment was higher in the control group. I don't know if that factored in the gig economy.
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